This is one of four interviews with the NDP leadership candidates, conducted over a two-month period. Read all our interviews here.
In early 2015, it looked like the NDP was cruising toward forming federal government for the first time. It didn’t happen, and that’s why you’re here.
Niki Ashton: In summary, yes.
In your view, what went wrong in 2015 and how do you get things back on track?
I’d say that 2015 was sort of the pinnacle of it, but I think we were on a track for 2015 for some time. I believe we lost touch with our principles on a number of fronts. We watered down some of what we believed in and we also lost touch with activists and social movements on the ground that we historically worked with and that share our values. We gave the opportunity to Justin Trudeau to out-left us, to come across as more progressive and inspiring, and now of course he’s gone on to break a number of key promises to Canadians: on electoral reform, on pipelines and the environment, on public services. And for all of his talk of the middle class, the middle class in Canada is shrinking, we’re dealing with growing inequality, the millennial generation is facing it in a big way.
Our campaign has been very clear: I’m running because I believe the NDP is at a crossroads, and Canada is at a crossroads, but when we’re talking about the NDP it’s time to reconnect with our principles and reconnect with activists and social movements with whom we share so much in common.
So what does it mean to be a progressive in 2017? That is a brand that the Trudeau Liberals really took on, so if you are trying to differentiate the NDP, to the average voter these are two progressive parties. How is the NDP different?
What we need to be clear on is the need for bold progressive vision, and our campaign has been extremely clear on the need for that. We have an economic justice platform that includes the commitment to free tuition, that includes a commitment to tax reform, so making the rich and corporations pay their fair share. We have an economic justice platform that talks about how we can bring public ownership back into our economy. It’s an idea that was incredibly unpopular thanks to neoliberalism for a long time. But if we’re going to talk about "How do we tackle inequality?" that’s one way we can get at it.
We also have a very bold environmental justice program, and it’s premised on standing up to big oil. We are the only campaign now that was clear right from the beginning on our opposition to pipelines like Kinder Morgan, like Energy East, and the need to look at transitioning to a carbon-free economy. Justin Trudeau talked a good talk in the election, including on Indigenous rights vis-a-vis resource extraction, and then has gone on to break his promises. We’re also the only campaign that has talked clearly about a plan to bring in pharmacare. That is a long-standing commitment of the NDP, but also universal dental care and a mental health strategy.
For me these are key issues. Expanding the social safety net really is a way of getting at the kind of inequality that everyone’s facing, particularly the millennial generation for whom the safety net doesn’t cover us, right? We’re also the only campaign that has a gender justice platform, and I’m going after Justin Trudeau’s faux-feminism on that every day. But you can’t have a prime minister saying that he’s a feminist and then selling arms to Saudi Arabia, that targets women and LGBTQ folks, or, frankly, a prime minister who fails to implement pay equity legislation and still talks about being a feminist.
On the arms deal, I seem to recall the NDP had very muted criticism of that at one point, too.
I mean, there were some problematic statements, but it’s been a solid couple of years that we’ve been pretty clear that this is not the way forward, and calling for an investigation, which in the dog days of summer the Liberals finally accepted.
And finally, I would add a very bold platform on racial justice, something that has made me unpopular with some people in the police, but systemic racism is alive and well in our country and we need to take it on. So what does it mean to be progressive, I guess, in short is a bold progressive platform that is substantive, that tackles inequality, that takes on climate change, and that listens to activists and social movements when it comes to developing a way forward.
What about the S-word, socialism? It was taken out of the NDP constitution in 2013, but you identify as a democratic socialist. Should the NDP go back to being an explicitly socialist party?
I opposed that move, back in 2013. I mean, gosh, we were really on the wrong side of history when, two years later, Bernie Sanders came out and was like, "I’m a socialist!" and everybody’s like "Yeah!"
Your campaign seems to be premised on recapturing those ideals, kind of solidifying the party's identity. One of the NDP's long-running conflicts, though, is between standing firm on its ideals and trying to appeal to a wider swath of the electorate. How do you navigate that?
I believe that principles and power can go together. The part of the country I come from, we’ve risen to power provincially by being very clear whose side we were on: on the side of working people, on the side of people struggling in poverty and on the margins, on the side of young people. It’s where we distance ourselves from these principles that things start getting murky. I would also say that it’s clear to me that Canada’s changing, and that the conditions that allowed for the rise of Bernie Sanders in the States, and Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour in the UK, are very much here in Canada, and those are growing inequality and the threat of climate change.
It’s a clear understanding that the status quo, the economic and political status quo, has not brought us greater wealth, has not brought us to the promised land of everybody being better off. In fact, I’ve talked about this as a key reason why I’ve initially pursued the leadership, is because of the growing inequality that our generation is facing, that my generation, millennials, are facing. Polls earlier this year indicated a growing number of young people are saying they will live lives worse off than their parents. That’s an unacceptable statement in a country as wealthy as Canada in 2017. So for me that sounds the alarm that not all is well. We did a tour on the rise of precarious work and millennials, we heard heartbreaking stories in Toronto, Vancouver, across the country and wherever we went, and a very clear understanding that we need to reject the status quo, and reject the neoliberal status quo that’s gotten us here, and that ideas like free tuition, like dental care, like public ownership, like a strong stand on climate change, are not negotiable. It’s a necessity.
So you just mentioned a few big-ticket items: pharmacare, dental care, tuition, and you’ve also proposed a lot of spending on green energy and affordable housing. But the problem the NDP often runs into is people think, "Oh, we’re down with all these ideas, but how will you pay for it?" How do you address that concern?
I would say that if you look at NDP track records in government, certainly where I come from, that’s something that we’ve managed to challenge. First and foremost, I would invite people to look at our tax reform policy. It has been acknowledged as the most progressive in a generation, where we identify upward of $40 billion that could be found by, literally, increasing taxes on the wealthiest in our country and on corporations. And in the case of corporations, simply raising them to pre-Harper-era levels. It’s clear to me that working people in Canada are paying their fair share of taxes. Those that aren’t are those that have the most, and they’re avoiding paying their fair share through legal means, or otherwise, and that needs to stop. I mean if we’re going to talk about tackling inequality, if we’re going to talk about taking on climate change, tax reform is key.
We’ve heard a lot about reconciliation in the last few years with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report coming out and the Trudeau government making a big point of wanting to address relations between settlers and Indigenous people. But many Indigenous activists and leaders say that’s not really happening. How would your approach to reconciliation be different?
Well first, I’ll start off by saying that I’ve had the privilege of working with First Nations. I grew up in Treaty 5 territory in northern Manitoba. My involvement in politics is directly tied into working closely with First Nations in the struggle for justice, as an ally, as somebody who believes that you can’t talk about justice in Canada if you’re not talking about Indigenous justice. I have the privilege of representing 41 First Nations in our constituency, and I’m deeply inspired by the resilience and the strength, but the challenges are immense. We’re talking about Third World living conditions where we are.
We need national leadership now, and that’s not what we’re getting from Justin Trudeau. We’re getting the rhetoric, we’re getting the symbols, we’re getting broken promises, and what we need is truly a commitment to reconciliation. I believe that has to be founded in the adoption and implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That’s a framework for not just getting at the core of addressing underfunding in education, housing, health, but it is also very clear on extraction. In development, which is a key part of moving towards reconciliation, [if] the First Nations do not want a project on their lands, they do not consent to it, [then] it cannot go forward. And that’s something that clearly Justin Trudeau’s not OK with.
It is up to those of us who are in leadership to listen to activists on the ground to listen to leaders on the ground. And in fact in the Indigenous community, it is that leadership that is truly challenging the status quo in our country and saying that when it comes to inequality and when it comes to climate change we need to do things very differently. So we should be working in tandem with them and we should be working to address the grave injustices that have taken place, but continue to take place, frankly on a daily basis.
Does that mean increasing funding to First Nations in a big way?
Yeah, absolutely. Adopting and implementing UNDRIP, absolutely removing 2% cap on education — which they say they partially have removed, but not entirely it hasn’t been removed — addressing the underfunding of health, of investing in housing, you know, respecting the decision of the human rights tribunal, but I believe it has to come from a core, principled stance, which is founded in the support of the UN declaration.
There’s a sense of pessimism among many young people today. They're coming out of school with a lot of debt, entering a job market that’s very inhospitable, full of precarious work, part-time work, contract work, and dealing with housing affordability on top of that. What’s your pitch to young people who feel like things are taking a turn south?
I think that sense is definitely there. I think it’s incumbent on those of us in leadership, pursuing positions in leadership, to tune in with that reality. So I would say, if you care about growing inequality and the way it’s pushing down on our generation in particular, if you care about catastrophic climate change, this is the campaign for you. I was the first one to talk about the rise of precarious work in the millennial generation in Parliament, and I don’t talk about it as a passing phenomenon. It’s an emergent crisis.
That’s why we launched a national tour on this over a year ago, because what we’re seeing is not just a rise in precarious work, it’s coupled with the highest levels of tuition fees, the highest levels of student debt, and never mind a housing market or rental market, that young people can’t access. We went to nine out of the ten provinces, one territory, and no matter where we went, we heard the same thing from young people. The word "hopelessness" was mentioned numerous times. The sense that the system is working against you, was there. We kept hearing "I’m doing everything I was supposed to do, and yet I’m not getting ahead." And then you see on the other hand, the minister of finance telling us to get used to the job churn. The prime minister still talks about jobs like we’re 10 years ago and keeps talking about innovation, but we’re not seeing our government take seriously the reality that young people are facing in our country, and so what we’re saying is that we need to tackle the inequality that millennials are facing in a big way, and that needs to be done by pushing fundamental system change, by pushing for a bold progressive vision, and what we’re seeing in our campaign is tremendous excitement from fellow millennials when it comes to that agenda.
People know that the NDP is concerned with those kinds of domestic issues. But on foreign policy, it’s not always clear what the NDP sees as Canada’s role on the world stage.
Under the Harper years we were pulled far to the right, in a hawkish direction when it comes to our place on the world stage. And frankly under Trudeau, despite the sort of public relations initiatives, you're seeing a number of the policies continue.
It is very necessary that we have a strong, principled voice from the NDP on foreign policy. That’s why I’m very proud that our campaign has made it clear right from the beginning that we need to stand up and speak out when it comes to supporting peace and justice in Palestine, and that that means there is a role for Canada to play in taking a stand against the illegal occupation and the oppression that’s taken place there. We’ve also talked about the need to oppose the increased military budget. I mean if we’re going to talk about having money, I mean we should be moving that extra money that was allocated towards saving lives, like through pharmacare and dental care, or maybe supporting justice for our veterans who are still waiting for it. We’ve also opposed Trump’s bombing in Syria, and essentially calling out the way in which Canada’s increasingly becoming the tail on the dog for the US. Our campaign’s been saying it’s important that Canada take a stand for human rights, for diplomacy, for peace and for justice around the world.
In terms of Canada and the world, our closest trading partner is the United States. Donald Trump is not very popular in Canada, and yet Canada has to deal with him. How would you deal with Donald Trump, who seems like he does not share your values?
Yes, that is an accurate statement. I would stand up for Canadians, for Canadian workers, for Canadian communities. It would be important for me, as we already have in the NDP, to speak out against his hate-mongering and divisive policies, policies that have also had an impact in Canada — for example, the immigration ban. And I believe that Canadians deserve that kind of leadership, and it’s not the kind of leadership we’re seeing from Justin Trudeau. When it comes to NAFTA, we have no idea what he’s saying behind closed doors in the US. On the military front there’s clearly an effort to appease the Americans, you know, on climate change, we haven’t really pushed back on the fact that the US has pulled out [of the Paris Agreement]. This is the time to have a backbone, this is the time to stand up for people here in our own country, communities in our own country, when it comes to trade, when it comes to foreign relations, when it comes to the environment, and I would certainly be proud to do that.
So you would publicly call him a hate-monger, for example?
I think I’m on the record as saying that.
But then you would be sure that he wouldn’t renegotiate NAFTA in some punitive way that punishes the country because of your statements?
There’s definitely an irrational element, but you’re already hearing American legislators talking about the need to work with Canada.
I think it’s important to call out the discrimination and divisive politics, that when it comes to negotiations on NAFTA. For example, it’s a very clear stance on our end because NAFTA is a problem that has contributed to the growing inequality we’ve seen, which is clear from the hollowing out of entire sectors in parts of southern Ontario. So the solution is not more of the same, or bringing in Brian Mulroney to once again advise us on the future of NAFTA, but rather to stand up for Canadian workers, to stand up with a very clear agenda on what we’re expecting. And I’m not confident that that’s happening under Trudeau, somebody who has brought on a number of conservatives to advise him, and again, somebody who’s not clear and not transparent on what we’re actually saying, despite the NDP demands to do so.
When we’re talking about trade, militarization, the environment, the importance of having a backbone and standing up for Canadians and longstanding Canadian values is critical.
You’ve said that you want the NDP to reconnect and work with social movements, what does that actually look like when you’re in Parliament or, if things work out, in government? Can government truly ever work with grassroots movements, or are the two necessarily at loggerheads?
Well, I believe that political change comes when you have pressure from the outside and good people in the inside that are listening. And that’s been my approach right from the get-go in politics. I got involved on the issue of same-sex marriage, working with activists, working with folks on the ground where I come from that believe strongly in LGBTQ rights, human rights. I’ve done this work in terms of Indigenous rights, in terms of feminist activism, most recently around labour rights in terms of precarious work, and so this is the only way I believe that you can truly approach progressive politics in a genuine way. Because many that are involved in social movements, including many young people, see social movements as the way to effect change in a very systemic way, whether it’s climate justice, whether it’s Indigenous sovereignty, whether it’s Black Lives Matter, whether it’s feminist movements and the Women’s March, for example.
And so I believe we need to be taking a cue from them in terms of where folks are at, what the issues are that need to be taken on, and work together in solidarity to get at these changes. In the times in which we live, with growing inequality, with the threat of climate change, people are clearly very active in taking these challenges on, we need to be there alongside with them. And yes, there are changes that can be made in terms of how the party does its work. I’ve talked about the need to spend more time developing policy and working based on principle, and less time on polling and public relations, so that means organizing, engaging in grassroots work that listens to social movements, that listens to activists, engaging in policy development on a regular basis rather than calling on folks every two years in our conventions.
The interview has been edited for length and clarity.