Here’s Why Dax Shepard’s Trans Rights Comments To Jonathan Van Ness Are So Damaging

"I could just cry because I'm so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included. I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women's fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired," JVN said.

On Monday, an episode of Dax Shepard's Armchair Expert podcast with Jonathan Van Ness was published. In it, he "debates" trans rights with Jonathan, who is nonbinary and uses any pronouns, for over 25 minutes — to the point where JVN was left "exhausted" and in tears.

Rick Kern / FilmMagic

The thing is, the rhetoric that Dax used is rooted in anti-science and reeks of anti-trans rhetoric. There is danger in covering trans rights as a "both sides" issue, as it elevates the "critical" side to something above what it is: garbage. It's the same reason that I wouldn't "both sides" a discussion on, say, climate change or interracial marriage.

Jason Bollenbacher / Getty Images for SXSW

Throughout the episode, JVN brought up a number of excellent and well-researched points. As Dax somewhat acknowledged, it shouldn't be on a NB person to have to defend their right to exist while a cis man engages in what they think is a debate. So, as lots of people probably won't listen to the full episode, here's a breakdown of what Dax said and why it's so harmful:

Dax: "I think to say that someone can't question without threatening to take someone's rights away, to explore these things. Some people are very uncomfortable about teenagers transitioning. They're challenging that. How do we know that the person's not going to change their mind?"

Jamie Mccarthy / Getty Images for NYFW: The Shows

It's worth noting that "transitioning" doesn't necessarily mean medical intervention. But still, let's consider just some of the data. A 2021 review of 27 studies with almost 8,000 teens and adults found that 1%, on average, express regret. Another study published last year found that 98% of 720 people under the age of 18 who were prescribed puberty blockers went on to continue hormone replacement therapy (and, of that 2%, it may not mean the person isn't trans). 

The numbers are also incredibly low — in 2021, it was estimated that less than 5,000 adolescents have taken puberty blockers (which are reversible) in the US over the past five years. The same report found that less than 300 adolescents in the entire US had top surgery per year. There are around 42 million adolescents in the US total. 

A 2015 study on detransitioning further found that most people who did detransition only did so temporarily, and that pressure from a parent was found to be the most common reason given. For context, if we look at regret rates for any surgery, one study found it that "self-reported decisional regret was present in about 1 in 7 surgical patients."

Citing these studies doesn't even get into what trans people are actually saying about their lived experiences or what they're campaigning for. 

To be clear, gender affirming care is backed by years of research and every major medical association. Still, this anti-science "what if" is being used to make real laws that will limit or ban life-saving care.

Dax: "Then there's another counter argument: Well, if they kill themselves, that's fucking permanent."

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Yes, suicide rates are alarmingly high for trans and nonbinary young people. One study from 2022 found that more than 50% of trans and nonbinary young people had contemplated suicide over the past year. 

Conversely, gender affirming care has been significantly linked to lower rates of depression, suicidal thoughts, and/or suicide attempts of trans and NB youth. 

As JVN points out, rates of homelessness are worse for trans and NB young people as well — with one study finding that well over a third of this cohort had experienced homelessness at some point.

Dax: "To even question it makes you an enemy — I don't think that's the way forward."

Taylor Hill / WireImage

This is the comment that prompted JVN to say, "I feel like I'm talking to my dad." 

The problem is that "just asking questions" can be used as a rhetorical device to push an anti-trans agenda (again: see lawmakers who cite hypothetical regret).  People have asked questions over and over again over trans and NB care, and there's a very clear answer. It reminds me of the people who claim that they're "just asking questions" about the COVID-19 vaccine, which has been shown to be safe. As JVN puts it later in the episode, "There isn't legitimate questioning going on. There is a public targeted onslaught toward queer people."

Dax: "Do I wish that the trans woman athlete had access and could play and follow her dreams? I do. Will I elevate her rights over women? We're pretending that women aren't the ultimate marginalized class throughout history."

Rodin Eckenroth / Getty Images

As JVN points out, there are problems with the trans women in sports discussion because it's often flattened so that a trans kid who wants to join their local soccer rec team is thrown into the same discussion as someone who wants to play in the Olympics. That being said, there are studies which suggest that even elite athletes who have undergone male puberty do not have any advantage. 

But, make no mistake of it, 23 states currently have bans on trans students participating in sports consistent with their gender identity — some of which are couched in the language of "protecting" women. Despite all this, the actual number of trans athletes is incredibly low. Save Women's Sports, an anti-trans organization, reportedly only found five K–12 transgender athletes competing on school girls teams in 2022.

Conversely, if you want to look at real sexism in sports, it's rife. Like with so much of these discussions, there are about a thousand other issues that would actually warrant the extensive media and legislative "discussion." 

Dax: "People have written 'cervix haver' and she goes, 'No, no, no, there's a name for us. You can't steal my identity to help your cause. You can't take away the defining characteristic that allows me to relate to all these other women that have been oppressed.'"

Kevin Winter / Getty Images for Netflix

I tried to find instances of people writing "cervix haver" in earnestness and could not. I did find an article that claimed that the NHS was getting rid of the word "woman" from its website and replacing it with "dehumanizing" terms like "cervix haver." I could not find any instances of the term "cervix haver" on the NHS website, but could find pages and pages of mentions of the word "woman." 

More broadly, there have been panics that inclusive language will lead to a worsening of women's rights, especially over abortion. As Vogue's Emma Specter put it, "Are gender-critical feminists really unable to make the distinction between the Republican crusade to strip as many people as possible of their rights and the desire to make the experience of everyone seeking abortion care as inclusive and minimally difficult as possible?"

Dax: "There's hate-mongers. There's people that don't fucking like trans people. What people are questioning, which is could the captain of the water polo team that was male for 19 years, next month, or in one year, compete against girls and women — would that be fair to girls and women?"

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JVN aptly says that the use of hypotheticals in sports is "a bogeyman to make us feel that our girls are being attacked." They go on to say that bans on gender affirming care means that puberty is forced in certain states, "even if you know you're trans." This presents a dichotomy: In Dax's situation, the hypothetical athlete is implied that she should have taken puberty blockers, but puberty blockers also aren't often allowed. This means that there is no time that trans people can play sports. 

JVN brings up how damaging this can be: In their own case, they would have killed themselves if it weren't for high school cheerleading. As they continue, the isolation can have huge social capital losses. 

Dax: "There are many people targeting queer people. Don't want them to have rights. I agree with you. I don't have those opinions."

Dave Benett / Hoda Davaine/Dave Benett / Getty Images

JVN then points out that Dax "parrot[s] a lot of the same things." While Dax states that he is worried of being seen as an "enemy," JVN expresses fear over kids who want to play sports non-competitively but "are paying the price for this."

In this bit, Dax distinguishes himself from the aforementioned "hate-mongers." I'd like to point out that people who are anti-trans often don't consider themselves so. J. K. Rowling may have written, “I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them," but that sure as hell doesn't mean she hasn't also espoused a ton of other anti-trans, harmful vitriol. 

Dax: "If you and I can't have a conversation about it, who are both well [intentioned]..."

Robin Marchant / Getty Images

JVN says that it was "hard to be cool through that." 

To be clear, no one should ever demand that trans and NB people debate their existence at all, let alone feel the pressure to remain cool and calm. I just can't help but think how different things would have been had Dax approached this from a place of genuine inquisitiveness. 

Dax: "I did not intend at all to get into a debate with you about this. I didn't want that at all."

Roy Rochlin / Getty Images

"I wanted to come chat about my podcast," JVN replies, tearing up. "I could just cry because I'm so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included. I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women's fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired." 

The version of this conversation that we heard on the podcast was 25 minutes. It's possible that the unedited version was even longer. 

Dax: "We're in a trans moral panic."

Bingo. 

After the episode went live, JVN posted on their Instagram story, "I don't quite have the words for this yet, but I will someday."

JVN / Via Instagram: @https://www.instagram.com/stories/jvn/3201118709954968574/

They also posted a video about trans inclusion in sports:

JVN / Via instagram.com

I know that there will be a ton of people in the comments who didn't bother reading this and will spout whatever vitriol they have in their hearts. While that's not okay, I realize I have no control over it. But to those of you who actually read this, I hope it encourages you to fight against the very real threats trans and NB youth are facing.

Peer-support services are available at the Trans Lifeline. You can call the hotline at 1-877-565-8860. If you, like us, feel impassioned about trans rights, learn more or donate here. If you want to learn more about how gender affirming care really works, you can click here.