"Do Not Come Out" – We Asked A Hollywood Casting Director Whatever We Wanted, And The Answers Are Shocking

"I f*cking saved that movie".

Recently, we sat down with Joel Thurm, a retired casting director has worked on Hollywood films, Broadway, and classic TV for over three decades!

Charles Sykes/Bravo/BearManor Media / Via Getty Images

Joel notably worked on the likes of Grease, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and Airplane!, and has just released a book entitled, Sex, Drugs & Pilot Season: Confessions Of A Casting Director.

To learn more about his career and the industry in general, we quizzed Joel on every aspect of casting that has ever puzzled us. Here's what he ~candidly~ revealed...

1. John Travolta handpicked Olivia Newton-John to be Sandy in Grease.

Daniele Venturelli / WireImage/Alberto E. Rodriguez / Via Getty Images

Hi Joel, congrats on the book! My first question has to be, what's the most memorable piece of casting you've ever done?

Joel: Well, Taxi is brilliantly cast if I do say so myself, but you can't do better than Grease. The only person who was attached to it from the beginning was John. John is the reason the movie happened because Paramount said they'd only do the movie if he was in it. I remember asking him, "who do you want? Who do you see as Sandy?" He said, "I'd love to have Olivia Newton" and I said, "well, that's a great idea."

After that, it was my job to make Olivia happen because she wasn't thrilled about doing it. I remember we did a test on set and things were going sideways. No one was laughing and people were concerned because this wasn't a cheap test, we were using a full studio crew costing many thousands of dollars per minute.

People were asking me, "why isn't this happening?" I realised it was because they were using the movie script dialogue, so I swapped that for the original dialogue from the play and it started working. I fucking saved that movie because if they'd used the movie dialogue that they were given, Olivia would have said, "sorry, I don't want to do this" and we had no back-up. If she'd said no, you would've seen me in a blonde wig playing the part.

I feel like we've really been deprived of something there. Why did John want Olivia out of interest?

Joel: Because he's smart. No, it's as simple as that. Olivia was beautiful, she was the right age, and she could sing. Plus, she was already a huge star and John knew that. He's not stupid. You put two huge stars together and look what happens!

2. And yes, he knows the cast of Grease don't look like they're teenagers, and he doesn't care!

Paramount Pictures

One thing that occurred to me to ask you about Grease is that quite a few of those main actors don't look like teenagers. What was the reasoning behind that?

Joel: What do you mean some? None of them look like teenagers! There was no reasoning, they were all chosen because they all looked approximately the same age. Nobody stood out as being terribly older or younger. In my opinion, Grease would not work if you cast it with real teenagers. Grease is not a documentary, it's a fairy tale and it shouldn't be real. It has all of these inappropriate things that are funny – don't make them real! You'll take all the humour away. So it wasn't something we intended to do, but in hindsight, we did exactly the right thing by going with the people we did.

3. Joel defied the "rules of casting" to put Stockard Channing in Grease.

Mike Coppola/Paramount Pictures / Via Getty Images

Joel: Stockard Channing defied every rule of casting and was totally wrong in every single aspect of her life and career for the part of Rizzo.

So why did she get it?

Joel: Because she's a sensational actress and she gave an incredible audition. I guess it came down to three people – Stockard, Lucie Arnaz, and Beverly D'Angelo. Stockard was a wealthy girl from the Upper East Side of New York who had probably never even walked near a school like Rydell High, but there was something about her. She was wonderful!

4. If he was casting Grease now, Joel would choose Austin Butler to play Danny and Julianne Hough to play Sandy.

Steve Granitz / FilmMagic/Jerritt Clark / WireImage / Via Getty Images

Joel: After seeing the guy who played Elvis, I would cast him, whatever his name is. Only because I saw him do something like that. For Olivia, I actually liked what Julianne Hough did with that role in the live version. She's the only person since Olivia who I've seen do a good job of Sandy.

5. But he thinks The Rocky Horror Picture Show could never be cast again successfully.

20th Century Fox

What about if you were making Rocky Horror now, who would you cast?

Joel: I just don't know how you'd replace Tim Curry. I know there was a revival in New York a few years ago and the guy was okay. I saw David Arquette do it in a small production in LA, but you can't replace Tim. I don't even know where you'd begin with that. It's easy to replace Brad and Janet, and actually there was a much better guy lined up to play Riff Raff. His name was Bruce Scott and he was about 1000 times better than Richard O'Brien. He could sing incredibly, but he had an Ann-Margret style accident early on in rehearsals and went out of commission for the next several months.

6. Joel talked Susan Sarandon into auditioning for The Rocky Horror Picture Show even though her agents declined it.

David Livingston/20th Century Fox / Via Getty Images

You mention a fun story about Susan Sarandon in your book, right? You kind of talked her into auditioning for The Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Joel: Not exactly. I had a little dinner party – if you can call serving spaghetti and meatballs to people on their laps a dinner party – and Susan came with her then husband, Chris Sarandon. My friend Bob LeMond was also there with his client Barry Bostwick. At some point in the evening, Barry and Susan locked eyes and, shall we say, began a relationship right after that. Anyway, at that dinner we discussed Rocky Horror and Susan wanted to do it. However, later on, her new agents declined it for her, which is something you should never do for your client.

I knew Susan loved the project, so I was a little bit sneaky. I got Barry to come in for an audition (even though he'd already bagged the part by then) and asked him to bring along Susan. Barry got up to read the part with me, and after the second sentence I said, "this is ridiculous. Why are you reading with me?" Susan was sitting in the audience, and I asked her to come up and read as a favour to me. So she wasn't auditioning, she was helping me out!

She starts reading with Barry and the director, Jim Sharman, says "who is that girl?" I told him and then he asked if she could sing. I said I didn't know, so we asked her to sing "Happy Birthday". She did, and the rest is history! They went to London or something to film, and two weeks into it, they were no longer speaking!

7. He also once saw Meatloaf completed naked!

Jo Hale/20th Century Fox / Via Getty Images

I once read that when Meatloaf first got to the set of Rocky Horror, he was quite disturbed by everything and he didn't want to do it anymore. Is that true?

Joel: I can't believe that. I mean, maybe somebody said that, but I have no idea why they would say that. He auditioned for the part in New York and he knew what he was getting into. He wasn't even famous then, he was just an actor who could sing. I can't imagine him saying that. However, I will tell you that I went backstage one night, and saw Meatloaf completely naked and passed out. It's a sight that's embedded in my mind!

8. He helped discover Danny DeVito... Sort of!

Stuart C. Wilson / ABC / Via Getty Images

You talk about "fledgling actors you helped push up the ladder" in your book. Whose career would not be the same without you?

Joel: Well, Ted Danson and pretty much everyone in Taxi. I met Danny DeVito when I was casting Starsky and Hutch. A colleague really wanted him in an episode, and he told me Danny would fly himself out and it wouldn't cost anything to the production. I said no and my colleague said, "Joel, will you trust me on this one, please?" So Danny flew himself out and got paid scale for Starsky and Hutch. So I guess I pushed him up the ladder!

9. And he bolstered Jason Bateman's career considerably.

Michael Loccisano / NBC / Via Getty Images for SXSW

Joel: I first met Jason when he did a series called Silver Spoons with Ricky Schroder. Ricky was a big star back then, and he was the straight man to Jason's funnier character. Ricky's idiot mother got mad that Jason was outshining her son, and told us to get rid of Jason. I guess she wasn't thinking about the way in which Henry Winkler had helped Ronnie Howard in Happy Days, rather than the other way around! She didn't like that they were a pair, so we had to lose him. We replaced him with Alfonso Ribeiro, who is perfectly good actor, but he's a straight man too. It wasn't funny after that and the show died. 

I knew how good Jason was though, so we put him in an NBC show that we knew was going to fail, but it would've cost the same amount not to do it. Then, when Valerie Harper became available in the next year, we put Jason in The Hogan Family with her, which did pretty well. So I very, very much boosted him up the ladder!

10. The casting couch is very much a thing.

Getty Images

Well, my next question is, is the casting couch a real thing?

Joel: The casting couch exists in every single business where one person wants something that the other person controls. People will put-out to get a job as a paralegal. So, of course, the casting couch exists, but it's not limited to show business. I myself, have never indulged in anything like that because I know it's wrong instinctively. When certain agents have bragged about doing it, I was like, "you're kidding. You're actually kidding."

Do you think it's quite common in Hollywood?

Joel: Yes, well, I think it will always be there. I think it's probably more common on a lower level with sleazier agents – I'll represent you, but you gotta blow me first. I could see that happening. Obviously with someone like Harvey Weinstein that happened at a higher level. I don't know, my thought is still that it's mostly at the lower level.

11. And he has known producers to schedule auditions around them receiving oral sex from actors.

Spencer Platt / Via Getty Images

Well, speaking of that, you talk in your book about working with a lot of "powerful men". What's your take on the Me Too movement and the downfall of people like Weinstein?

Joel: I think it's wonderful. I think that Harvey Weinstein should be taken down. In my experience, I remember I was casting a half-hour comedy and the producers wanted to call in this girl, let's call her Amanda. They scheduled her for the end of the day, and what happened was a couple of other actors dropped out. So my assistant moved this woman to the middle because that's what you do. 

When the two producers looked at the list of who was coming in, they queried why she was in the middle. It seems Amanda would give out blowjobs to the producers to help get her the part, but they had to do it when there was time at the end of the day. She ended up coming in and reading, but she wasn't right for the part. Anyway, then she goes, "when you want to start?" The producers were so embarrassed, but they more or less initiated it!

12. He thinks the most difficult person in Hollywood is Joaquin Phoenix.

John Shearer/Warner Bros. Pictures / Via Getty Images

Joel: I mean, he's not difficult, he's just very private. His mother was my secretary for five years, which is how I met him when he was eight. Actually, I started all the Phoenix kids off in their careers. Once Joaquin became famous, he wouldn't really do interviews. I jokingly said to his mother, "he's a wonderful actor, but a terrible movie star".

When the Oscar campaign for Joker started, he changed because he had to. I remember 60 Minutes called me up to give background on Joaquin, and they used my movie star line and asked him about it. He burst out laughing because what do you say to that? You can't answer that. But we're good friends really; he was the one who suggested I write my book!

13. And the nicest people in Hollywood are John Travolta, Ted Danson, Phylicia Rashad, and Debbie Allen.

Walter McBride/Paul Archuleta / FilmMagic/Jonathan Leibson / Via Getty Images for AACTA

Joel: Well, I can only really talk about people I've worked with. Phylicia Rashad is just wonderful, as is her sister, Debbie Allen. Oh, and Ted Danson. He wrote on the back of my book, "thank you for pretty much everything in my life".

John Travolta is also one of the nicest, sweetest people; I've known him since he was 17. I've asked him to do three or four of those requests from fans in hospitals, and he speaks to them every time. There was never any diva business with him on set either. When we got together before COVID for a run of Grease sing-a-long concerts, he was unchanged. He was as nice then as he was before!

14. He once told Rosie Perez he didn't care for her tits.

Karwai Tang / WireImage/Universal Pictures / Via Getty Images

How has the act of casting changed since you became involved?

Joel: From what I can tell, there are far fewer in-person readings and meetings, and a lot more people are putting themselves on tape now. It's a shame because there used to be meetings with agents and managers where they would introduce a new client to us, but I don't think that happens as much now. I used to love to throwing out something controversial just to see how the talent would react in those get-togethers!

The funniest example I have is when I met Rosie Perez. I'd just seen her in Do the Right Thing and, shall we say, she was seriously topless in that movie. Her manager was a good friend of mine and asked if I wanted to meet her and I said, "sure". She comes in and I told her, "I thought you were wonderful in that movie and it wasn't because of your tits. I just fell in love with your voice and your acting". She looked at me and said, "what's wrong with my tits?" It was hilarious.

15. Joel once sat on a plane with Bea Arthur, who told him that her The Golden Girls co-star, Betty White, was a "cunt".

Desiree Navarro / FilmMagic / NBC / Via Getty Images

I know you talk a little bit about The Golden Girls in your book, is there anything fun you can tell me about the cast?

Joel: Well, I can tell you that NBC wanted Elaine Stritch to be Dorothy instead of Bea Arthur, but Elaine bombed her audition. Obviously, it ended up going to Bea who was the person the writer had in mind in the first place. Then there was the time I was seated next to Bea on a flight to Vancouver and she told me Betty White was a cunt. I mean, that's really just a story about how one woman felt about another woman.

I'm sorry, what happened?!??

Joel: Well the thing is, Bea and Betty did not get along – well, Betty didn't have any undue hard feelings about Bea, but Bea did not like Betty for several reasons. Bea was a "real actor", so to speak. She needed to prepare and when you broke her concentration, she went out of it. Betty was not that kind of actor. I don't know what her training was, but she was a TV personality first and then she became an actor.

They clashed in terms of methods, I think. And yeah, during the flight we chatted, and Bea referred to Betty as a cunt. It's important to note, however, that regardless of how Bea felt about Betty personally, it never ever, ever interfered with the show or surfaced during production.

16. Joel lobbied for Ted Danson to be cast in Cheers, the show that launched his career.

Gregg DeGuire / WireImage / NBCU Photo Bank / NBCUniversal / Via Getty Images

Are there any major roles that come to mind in which someone else nearly got the part?

Joel: When we cast Cheers, everybody agreed that Shelley Long was perfect for the part of Diane, so that was done. Then it came down to casting a Sam Malone and it was between Ted Danson and William Devane. We went off into a conference room, and I remember my uber boss Grant Tinker was there too – he was the chairman of NBC at the time. I said, "to me it's very obvious, it's Ted." However, Grant wanted William. Bill was a little older, and the character was an over-the-hill ballplayer who opens a bar, so he maybe fit that more.

We argued for a long time and I finally lost my patience. I said, "Grant, put it this way – more women in America are gonna wanna fuck Ted Danson." Grant was extremely proper, so he sort of clutched his pearls when I said that. Well, after that, we went around the room again and more people were in favour of Ted. So, yeah, if it wasn't for my vulgarity, Ted wouldn't have been in Cheers, which launched his career! By the way, he didn't know that story until about two years ago.

What did he think about you saying that?

Joel: He laughed, he was embarrassed. He's very self-effacing actually!

17. Joel thinks that Gary Cole is the most underrated actor in Hollywood.

David Livingston / CBS / Via Getty Images

Which stars, if any, do you think deserve more fame?

Joel: An actor who works a lot, but I think it's still underrated, is Gary Cole. He's done everything, but when you say Gary Cole, no one knows who he is. He's always working though, and he's actually the one who I wanted for Miami Vice instead of Don Johnson! I thought Don was a good idea for the part, but NBC had done three pilots with him in the last several years and they all had failed. So the network part of me said, "well, you don't put someone who's done three failed pilots in another show like this!"

18. Being "phoney" is the worst thing one can do in an audition.

Lionsgate

What's something actors do in an audition that immediately makes them "un-castable"?

Joel: I wouldn't go as far as to ever call someone un-castable; you can always correct somebody! I guess when they are phoney, or when they pretend that we've known each other forever – that can be offputting! I'd rather people just be themselves in an audition.

19. Being "discovered" on the street also happens a lot.

NBC

What are the chances of a regular person being discovered on the street or in public?

Joel: It happens! Once I was casting a movie called King of the Gypsies, and I was having coffee with my then-boyfriend. Across the way was this guy, and my boyfriend goes, "there's your king of the gypsies", and points to this guy. I went over and said, "look, I'm not coming on to you. My name is Joel Thurm and I'm a casting director. Here's my number. I'm casting this movie and you look like you're right for the part." He came in and read and he wasn't all that good, but he went on to have his own acting career!

20. Joel thinks John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John have the best on-screen chemistry of all time, and that Kate Winslet and Leonardo DiCaprio were not believable as lovers.

Paramount Pictures/20th Century Fox

In your opinion, who has the best on-screen chemistry of all time?

Joel: You want me to say Clark Gable and Vivien Leigh? I mean, how far back do you want to go? I think John and Olivia had sensational chemistry. It's easier to talk about things I've done, but maybe you could name a pair and I'll comment on them.

Well that about Titanic then? Say, Leo and Kate?

Joel: I didn't believe them for one second. I didn't think they had great chemistry at all, he had far better chemistry with Margot Robbie in The Wolf of Wall Street. I thought she was great, and she should've pushed him more, perhaps. Also, there was definitely room for two of them on that door... But that's another thing!

21. Finally, Joel's advice to gay actors in leading man roles? Don't come out.

Tim P. Whitby / NBCU Photo Bank / NBCUniversal / Via Getty Images

One of the things that interested me about your book is that you talk a lot about being a gay man in the industry. What kinds of things are actors told to keep to themselves, and do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

Joel: I think, for some reason, you can be a female movie star and be an out lesbian... Probably because straight men find lesbians "interesting". However, there is not one single out gay movie star. Television, yes, you have people like Matt Bomer and Neil Patrick Harris (although he grew up in front of our eyes, so he doesn't count). But name me one out gay movie star in feature films ever. There is none! I think the closest we ever got was Richard Chamberlain, but he came out after a certain point when his career was kind of over.

I think it's because of the tremendous amount of money involved in feature films, and the suspension of disbelief. That disbelief totally disappears on stage, but it doesn't translate to movies. I guess I would urge, if you are a handsome leading man on track to becoming a movie star, keep it to yourself. Do not come out.

I do think things are changing though – do you know who Jonathan Bailey is, for instance?

Joel: No.

Well, he's gonna be in the new Wicked film.

Joel: Is he Fiyero? Fiyero is not the star of the show. I think there are two other people in Wicked who have more important parts. Also, you can be gay as Fiyero. You're in a silly costume and you're not the *star* star! Anyway, that's my two cents, as saddening as it is.

Did any of Joel's answers surprise you? Let us know in the comments! You can pick up Joel's book directly from the publisher, or on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all good book retailers if you want more deets on the fascinating world of casting!